Interveiw with Brad Whisnant

Spence: Hey, everybody! Welcome to another Golden Cabinet Podcast. My name is Spence Pentland, and I'm the founder of the goldencabinet.ca, and if you haven't already done so, please, check out the goldencabinet.ca, there's other podcasts there and resources that I'm pouring my heart into trying to help people like you grow their practice, become more confident to succeed. In doing so, I'm connecting with amazing people like Brad Whisnant, which we are interviewing today. Hey, Brad. I'm so excited. Over the last few weeks when we've been connecting, I've learned so much about Brad. I think we've probably maybe crossed paths, who knows, in seminars way back in the day, but, wow, you're kicking ass and you are contributing to the world and to our industry and you are a force and a mentor to so many and should be to so many more. And that's my intention today, to get the word out about Brad and all the amazing things he's doing. Maybe you can help him out or follow him, or at least check out his seminars, his books and learn from him. Anyway, welcome, Brad.

Brad: Thank you, thank you. No, I appreciate it, mate, it’s very thoughtful of you to have me. Yeah, I think we're doing the same stuff, just trying to help people be successful, and bottom line, if you and I can do it, you know, anybody can. There's no magic sauce.

Spence: It's true. Probably a bit of psychology, a lot of perseverance and hard work.

Brad: Just never quit.

Spence: Yeah. From what Brad sent me, anyone who's a guest on the show, I get them to send me their experience and their professional achievements, and most often I would just read through them but that would take about 20 minutes. I mean, you've been busy, man, but I would love to back it up a little bit and start maybe with your story, kind of what got you started into this, and what also lights that spark, because you're seeing 100+ patients a week.

Brad: I have a small clinic which is – and that's why I like to tell this story -  I'm in a small town where no one likes acupuncture, there's like 12,000 people. Again, the story I always get is how can you do acupuncture, you're white. It's racist but that's the comment I get, but they just don't know any better. I'm in a town of 12,000 people, and for the last seven, eight, nine, ten years, I've seen 100+ people a week. Now we're up to about 130, and it's just me and my wife. I’ve just hired two employees for the first time in ten years like three or four months ago because I'm expanding into new clinics, and that's kind of my thing now. I've kind of cut back on seminars and I'm building clinics. It's been a very, very good clinic, and again, I don't have any secret sauce other than to work hard. I've got a small clinic, no one likes acupuncture, I'm in a small town with no people, and yet it's 120, 130 people a week every week. What got me into it, originally I was in the marines and I've always been helping people, and people always say, well, you know, Brad, the marines and medicine are so different. Not really. I mean, it's both about helping people. One's a little bit more violent, with a gun, you take over small countries and things like that, but it's still the same idea. As I got older, I just realized that I wanted to be in something continuously. I was originally going to be a cop in LA and I was working for the Portland Police Department. And that's cool and I like helping people, but it's kind of negative. I probably would have been bald, an alcoholic and twenty or thirty pounds overweight just from all the stress and negativity, and I love cops, but just for me that was just kind of felt like 20 or 30 years of that and I’d be really pissed and really angry and really, really cynical. So, I was like, what's a really good industry that I can provide and help people and be positive. For me, it was medicine, and when I first started medicine, I was going to DO program, then I was in a nursing program, and I said, no. But Chinese medicine I like because I hate being sick. So, I was like, I need to be in a medicine that's proactive not reactive. I was like, okay, how can I be proactive in medicine and how can I help people? Oh, Chinese medicine. And here I am. It was tough. There was a couple, two, three years where I was going to quit when I first started, I really was. And I just realized, I'm 48 now, and I realized that every time I quit in my life whether it was my first marriage or investments or ideas or problems, it always got good right after I quit. I just realized that, dude, this is life, like, there's always going to be a dark time and you can't quit and go to a new light area, you have to stay in that dark time and appreciate it and learn and grow. And that's when the growth comes. I got through this really hard time, where I had no money, I had to go to my parents’ house to get food because I couldn't afford it, I was super broke with tons of debt, and I was like, I'm just not going to quit this time. After that, man, I moved out to a smaller town and it blew up, and it's just been amazing ever since. The crux of it is when you’re back against the wall, what are you going to do, are you going to fall? Eventually, no matter who you are, what happens, life turns. There's going to be a dark time, and either you give up or you sit down and you start solving problems. You can look at yourself and say, this is how I'm going out and this is how I'm going to end, this is how it's going to go, man, or you can bang through it. Once you bang through it, you get on the other side and it's this beautiful sunrise. And then the Sun just rises, and you just start banging it.

Spence: Obviously, finance is a huge motivator for people. Food, shelter brought to you by the almighty greenback. Wow, so you moved out to a small town, were you with your wife at the time?

Brad: I wasn't married at the time. The reason why that worked, it was funny, while I was in Portland, there's a million people, a lot of acupuncturists, I was seeing 30, 40, 50. I was successful. Don't get me wrong, we're doing six figures plus, but it wasn't like stupid successful. I just had a lot of people that day, this was back when gas was really expensive in America, and they didn't want to drive to St. Helens where I'm at, it's about an hour away, and I'm like why don't you just go see someone out there because I don't feel bad, you got to drive to see me, and they're like, Brad, there's no one out there. I'm like, well, I'll come out there and help you. Then I just went out there and then it just got crazy. I think it's from that core of just trying to help people like how best can I serve you. Brad, I hate driving to see you. Okay, well how can we modify that, how can we overcome that? Well, Brad, I'd need to see you. Well, I’ll come and see you. And then I went out there, and it was just like, wow! I like being in a small town just because it's me. Because I want to know Spence, not Spence as your social security number, I want to know Spence and your wife and that you raised family and your ancestors, homestead and you got a farm. And in a small town, that's just me. I just like that small town where, like, I went to Starbucks yesterday on the way home, the Starbucks in town here, and I walked in, and the joke with my wife is like, how many patients will we see. I saw four patients just walking into Starbucks. I go to the gas station, I see patients, I walk through Walmart, and that's because I want to be like that. I'm like, oh, what's up, John, what have you been up to, man, come on back in here, whatever, you know, blah, blah, blah. So, that's me. I like that feel over a large city, but don't get me wrong, you can also die a small town if you're an asshole. Everyone's going to find out in two minutes. Live by a small town and you can die by a small town. I mean, there's obviously a negative side of that, but it's been very positive for me.

Spence: I just recently moved to a smaller town as well from Vancouver in Canada here. I've got three little boys, I know you've got a young family as well, and mostly, I wanted us all to be able to spread our wings a little bit. I grew up in a small town, I don't know if you did, I love that as well. It's like I want to bump into people. I think we're losing that social interactive skill. Rewinding into your life, was there a parental influence, or I mean, you're talking like all of this is just so second nature and it is for you.

Brad: You just get crushed! My saying is, how do you become successful, it's super easy, you just fail your way to success. You just keep failing, and then, including myself eventually, you dig enough holes and you strike gold. The thing is you just can't quit. And it has to be educated. I mean, you can't go chase part cars, that's not going to make you successful. You have to be educated and you got to be directed, but then, within that direction, you don't give up. For me, it was just always about ‘my why has got to be bigger than my what’. Because see, the what is going to get beat. The whole world can take everything from me, but you can't take me. I'll always be okay, you can take all my stuff, you can take everything from me, you can crush me, but I'll never be crushed because you got that passion inside, man. No one can take that. I think I learned that in sales. I used to be in real estate, and you just realize that everything can be taken from you. Even when I was in the war, everything can be taken from you, but not you, man, like who you are. Like your house and your khakis and your vanilla latte, that ain't you. That ain't me. That's I guess how I self-express obviously, but that's still not who I am. And as long as I stay true to that, then everything seems to work out.

Spence: Wow, okay. Again, you say you get knocked down, a lot of people would give up, sales is a great trainer.

Brad: Sales just get your ass kicked, and you learn real quickly. You’re just like, oh, okay, well, that's cool.

Spence: Yeah. I feel with a lot of my staff and acupuncturists that I've gotten to know that there's a bit of an allergy to the word money or sales as it adheres to TCM or acupuncture, but essentially, that first interaction with a patient is you selling yourself to them to some degree that you can help them, right?

Brad: If two people are having a conversation - I don't care if you're trying to make love to a woman or you're selling a house or you do an acupuncture, or even if you're a preacher - if two people are talking, you're in sales. That's all there is. I mean, even when I told my wife I love her, am I not selling her baby? I'm a good guy, I want to love you, I mean, that's sales! It’s not slimy. And in sales, it is interesting because really the original meaning of doctor or teacher sales is teaching. This whole concept, people think, oh, doctor and sales, it’s so different, but really doctor means teacher, sales actually means to educate. So it's kind of the same thing. The problem is when you sell and you lie. That's where that problem comes in. And that's just like if you're trying to tell a woman you love her but you just want to sleep with her, you're lying, you don't love her, you're being a slime ball. It's the same thing with sales. If you truly care about someone, hey, man, you know I want to help you out but you know you got to pay me. I think a lot of people have an issue with that, but you know what's so interesting about that, like in April now, I'm taking a bunch of acupuncturists to Vietnam to volunteer, and how can I do that? Because you make money. Who's funding the trip? Me. I've also volunteered in India, Guatemala, Honduras, Vietnam. How can you do that? Because I have money. Who makes that money? Me. Who donates to my charity? Me. You can make money and then do good with it, and it doesn't get to have money and then let go be a horrible person. I think money allows you to do lots of good things.

Spence: That is…amazing. That kind of altruistic behavior is what so many get in. I love acupuncturists for there's the same strength and weakness. It is just how genuinely authentic they want to help people, but I mean that connection to making money is an important one, and I have heard recently that the government is considering in the U.S. pulling federal funding for student loans because of the lack of gainful employment. Now it's going to become essential that you step out and try to learn a little bit about marketing yourself, getting your  gift to the world. India and Vietnam, can you expand a little bit on that?

Brad: Yeah. My deal was, I graduated in 2007, and I figured, hell, in America we don't get our licenses till December. We graduate in September. I was like, well, I can either be drunk and do nothing, or I can go help people. I just basically started a non-profit over coffee one day. I said, hey, well, screw it. I called a lawyer, can you make me a non-profit, I got a non-profit, and me and another student, we went to India, and I treated 100 people a day six days a week for three and a half months. I came back, got my license and I opened a clinic, but then I also wanted to continue with the non-profit, and we did some Guatemala work and Honduras work, and then I've been to Vietnam. I've been to Vietnam 20 times, but we did four or five clinics in Vietnam, because that’s where my wife's from. That's the big connection to Vietnam. I also volunteered at my grandma's place here in America, which was great, because all my grandma's people, my youngest was 75 to 104, and treating old people is very cool. You can learn a lot about your life if you talk to old people, because they've already done what you're going to do. For as much as we all think we're individual snowflakes and we are, we're still all the same people, so to hear them, it's very interesting to learn medicine from older people. They can give quite a perspective not only on life, but on medicine and stuff, which I really enjoyed. That’s been my volunteer stuff, and that's what I love to do. And I still do a lot of volunteer work within my clinic when there's lots of free and discounted treatments for people. I certainly charge more money than most, but there's also free stuff within that. I really enjoy doing the volunteer stuff because it's just wonderful.

Spence: So, you're bringing a bunch of people to…?

Brad: This will be the first time. I'm taking eight acupuncturists to Vietnam and we will treat – I mean, last time I was in Vietnam, I did 150 people a day on my own, and I think now we'll be seeing 150 people a day. I'll have them come back two or three times a day, so we should have anywhere from 400-600 treatments a day. Probably 200-500 treatments a day, which should be wonderful.

Spence: Wow, so you must be smart to be getting your needle shift straight from China to Vietnam.

Brad: No, man. I took several hundred thousand needles. I’ll take 400,000 needles to Vietnam, man. Our needles are way better than Chinese.

Spence: Yeah, I know.

Brad: I just got back from China, man. They're rough.

Spence: It's good to have some fine grit sandpaper when you're there. What do you see there mostly? I'm just so curious about it.

Brad: It's pretty cool, because you see everything from ankle pain to leprosy. I laugh when people try and tell me that they know everything about acupuncture or they've discovered everything about acupuncture or there's no way that I can learn something, because when you're overseas, I had people bringing their patients the morning after they had a stroke versus ten years later in America. I mean, when has anyone seen rheumatic fever, leprosy, mumps, rumps, bumps carbuncle, strokes, I've seen tuberculosis. I mean, all these crazy stuff you don't see, and not that you can help it, but it's just good to see it. Because you and I don't get to see that stuff, especially in America, we don't see that. And when you see these types of things and read thousands of books, you can start to develop ideas on your own. That's why I laugh when people try and say, oh, you could never figure that out. If you go treat 50-60,000 people, a 100,000 people, anybody can figure it out. You just learn. You want to know what works for back pain, good, let's treat 50 people with back pain before lunch, and then we'll look. You want to see if this works better than that, good, after lunch we'll do 50 more and we'll see what's up. Let's try it out, let's test it. Boom, let's do it. That's what I do when I go on these volunteer trips. There's something you're certainly giving to these people, but also as a practitioner, you get so much. You get to see such a wide range of disease, again, anywhere from, like I said, ankle pain to rheumatic fever, and everything in between. Even polio. I've never treated polio in America. You see all this crazy stuff, but then also you see so much of it. Since it's free, it's cool because then you have this ability - you and I aren't scared that it will be like, wait, if I kind of try and I fail, they won't come back. This is cool with volunteers because you know what, I've never tried it, let's see what happens, and then you do it and it's cool because it's free. It’s just such an educational experience, and I think that's where most of my stuff comes from. I know when I do this, that's what will happen, because I've seen it so much overseas, and plus here in America. But in America, you are still running a business, you have to be a little careful how you screw around. You can't always just go for the moon in America because you're running a business. You can't afford to make a mistake because you're running a business. But overseas, you can afford to make mistakes, and through, again those failures, through those mistakes, you become successful. That's the value of giving to them.

Spence: Wow. That is Vietnam, and you've done similar in these other countries as I understand. You've also got something going on for eye health collaboratively between Norway and China.

Brad: I personally think the future of acupuncture is going to be specialization. I really do. Did you specialize in fertility?

Spence: Yeah, 14-15 years almost now.

Brad: I think it's wonderful. I really think that's the future of it. If you look at coffee, you look at supermarkets, if you look at anything, it's all going to specialization. Even in Western medicine, even in Chinese medicine. For me, I'm picking three or four specialties that really light me up, that I feel like I can do every day that I'm excited about. One of those is eye health. I like it because there’s not many people do it, and I have a collaborative agreement with a Chinese hospital. I just was over there, treating and teaching and learning, and then I also have a collaborative agreement with a really popular Norway clinic where they've been doing eye health for 20-30 years. They're all my teachers, I teach them, they teach me. We're going to China in September, but yeah, that's another thing that really lights me up, from an acupuncture standpoint. I just kind of started doing that about a year ago, but it's wonderful.

Spence: Nice. There's a guy, his name eludes me now, but a Chinese fellow in Vancouver that has specialty in eye health for at least a couple decades, ahead of his time in that sense. I should get that name to you because he's part of your tribe. Speaking of tribe, you have a huge tribe. How did that form, was it through your seminars?

Brad: I've been giving seminars all over the world since about 2010. I've written five or six, seven books, and mostly, my deal is Master Tung, doctor Tan, those were my teachers. Not Master Tung because he was dead, but Wei Chieh Young and Dr. Tan. That's the style I do, and I've been following Dr.Tan and Wei Chieh Young since I was first in school. Like I said, I've got five or six, seven books, they are on the wall back there, and I've got an app on Bloodletting, and I've got a poster and all these things that I've done. I'm developing some needles which would be cool. All that's on my site. I've kind of moved it into Bay City, bradwhisnant.com, and it's free. It's up for everyone but if you think like me and you want to get lit up and excited and passionate, and if Tung acupuncture speaks to you or the Distal acupuncture, this distal idea of concept of acupuncture speaks to you, then that's on my site. It's free and I don't charge money. Obviously, my content, some of it is free and some of it is charged, but to be on the site is free. I just try and find like-minded people. For sure, not everyone likes it, there's a lot of people that don't enjoy me or my style and that's to be respected. But I just try and be who I am and I try not to be all things to all people, I just try and be me. Hopefully, that resonates with you.

Spence: And that's clear. Anyone who wants someone - you've got a patient there?

Brad: Hold. I’ll come right back.

Spence: No problem. For anyone who has an interest in the Tung or the Tan, he's clearly an expert in it seeing however many people a week, 100+ plus for the last however many years. You're back. For the new acupuncturists out there that aren't familiar with Tung and Tan, can you give like the elevator, call’s notes of what that entails?

Brad: Yes. Master Tung, he died in the ‘70s, but he certainly is regarded as one of the top acupuncturists in the last 500 years, and then doctor Tan, he just passed away recently, but he certainly is probably one of the persons that popularized this distal concept of acupuncture. We don't learn it in school, and basically what it is, it's just needles that are placed distally in the body versus locally, and much like a Stomach 36 in TCM. A stomach 36 isn't in the stomach but it does things for the stomach, or like a GB 41 is not in the belt of the body but it does distal effects, or an LI 4 for the face isn't in the face but it has distal effects - that's kind of what it's looking at is, treating these nerves distally. I think the big thing that separates the Dr. Tan and Master Tung from the TCM is they were always looking for instant results. Not that the instant results last, you should have to treat people more than once, don't get me wrong, but this instant result of, wow, my pain is instantly gone, or, wow, I'm not nauseous, or I can breathe or my heart's not skipping a beat. My stomach isn't in knots, or my fibroids or my period doesn't hurt, these types of instant results and it's just very, very powerful. That doesn't mean that there's no other amazing styles, because I know a ton of people that are crazy busy, and they don't do Tung or Tan. I think the crux of that is not doing Tan or Tung to be successful because it's not the style that makes the man, it really is the man that makes the style. Because as long as you're lit up and passionate, I bet I could do your style and be successful. I don't think it matters. I mean, it's just because that's how I've chosen to express myself. Just like you and I wearing clothes, it's like, well, my clothes are better than your clothes, but dude, if you look good in your clothes, and I look good in my clothes, it's how you and I self-express ourselves. I think as long as we truly self-express ourselves, and for me, that true self-expression has been through Tung and Tan, and for me that lights me up. I think people resonate because they get that ‘I'm lit up’, but that's not to say you couldn't be just as crazy successful doing any other style, you just have to find a style that you're lit up about.

Spence: Do you feel that certain conditions maybe respond as well to different styles through experimentation you find out?

Brad: Yeah. Over 70,000 patients I found I think pain is best served with a distal approach. And not always, you have to be careful with this, but that's always mostly because in America most pain is inflammatory nature. We always say we don't want to spank the crying baby. So, if your pain is crying, it's hot, it's pissed, it's crying. If we spank my son who's crying, he just cries more. To get my kid to quit crying, is he hungry, do I need to change a diaper, does he have to sleep, and these are doing different things. That's kind of how the Tung acupuncture is. We try not to put a needle where the baby's crying. We put needles somewhere else to calm everything down and to fix it, and then the body responds really powerfully and wonderfully. That’s my thing. I think it's a really good system, especially for Americans and to Americans. Americans need a little bit of magic, and it's really good for an American when I can put a needle somewhere else, and then their pain is gone. I know that sounds kind of like a sales technique, but it's very important. When I'm like, look, I understand the body well enough, I can put a needle in your hand to fix your face. There's something very powerful in that versus – there were the two big things when I came to St. Helens. One was, you're white, how can you do this, and two, I have back pain why are you putting needles in my hand and my feet. That was a very big thing to work through.

Spence: Some people having such pain, they would never go to a chiropractor, a massage therapist, it’s like don't go anywhere near that. So, experimentation came from, okay, well, let's work on the meridian.

Brad: I think people do distal acupuncture in TCM, they just don't call it that. Everyone's doing it, and we do have local points kind of in the Tung system. I mean, I always tell everyone it's about what are the most therapeutic points on the body. There's areas on the body that are more therapeutic than other areas, and I think the Tung system and the Dr. Tan’s system give us a good roadmap to find those therapeutic areas. I always say this too, all this stuff is in TCM, it is. All comes from the E ching and I ching, it's just in school, we didn't learn about it. People are like, oh, it's different. Well, no, it's still in the I ching. If you go back and read, it's all there, it's just we didn't study that piece, and so that's why it seems so weird or unfamiliar.

Spence: I don't know how it is, but I would suspect it's not that dissimilar that we're all in the West here getting some form of standardized TCM that's used in hospitals. I don't know how much time you've got there.

Brad: Maybe five minutes.

Spence: In the Golden Cabinet primarily, I want to help people light this spark because this is the spark, this is the psychology I believe - I'm a fan of Tony Robbins –

Brad: He's my boy, man, you got to burn the boats!

Spence: Damn right. Exactly, and it's here, it's what you're just emanating, what's cruising from your pores is that passion that's stepping up and stepping in and encourage. For someone coming in, new practitioners, it's terrifying. It's like, holy crap, I got to make a money here. There's influences that you want to share. I mean, Tony Robbins, obviously we share that one. If you haven't been to one of his UPW seminars and walked on fire –

Brad: I haven’t but I want to.

Spence: Everyone should. Is there any advice or mentors or books or anything that you would recommend?

Brad: I think people like you in the industry. I mean, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. What I've done is I just look at other successful people, and then I think the biggest thing though - and this is where people get freaked out - is you've got to make it yourself. The problem is people are so scared about having money is that they'll be all these people, not be themselves. I always tell people, this is always my joke question, like who's the hardest patient you’ll ever treat, and people always say, well, the Q chronic pain, your family members, your wife, your boyfriend, whatever. The hardest patient you will ever treat is the one you need. The problem is most acupuncturists need patients, and when you need a patient, then you're going to change who you are. And if you don't need people, then you can be free to be self expressed, and then you can be free to say, wow, just like a woman. If you're dating, if you need someone to date, you'll change who you are as a man, but if you're completely dialed in who you are as a man and then you're just self expressed that some women will enjoy me of course, some women will hate me, that's fine too. But if you're true to who you are, then the right woman will come along, and then it's okay. That's the thing with patients. A lot of my patients don't appreciate my spiky hair, who I am, but I have to be okay with that. But then the people that do like me are connected to me because we have the same belief system. It's not about doing business with everybody, it's about doing business with people that believe how you believe. The only way to get people that believe how you believe is you have to have enough strength to say, this is what I believe and I'm okay with you if you don't like me. That's the rub of that. You have to self-proclaim your strength. I've had some people come in, well, Brad, my other acupuncturist put needles all over me, they did this, they did that. I'm like, I don't do that and then they don't come back. And I have to be okay, because that's not who I am. That hurts, but that's how you become successful. And once you are straight with that and true fold of who you are, I think we're in such an emotionless society, when you are exposed and vulnerable, people will naturally come to that. Because people want passion, people want connection, but for you to give that, you got to be open, and you got to be vulnerable. You want a woman to marry you, you got to say, yeah, this is who I am, and I'm vulnerable and I love you and I want this. And that's scary. It's much easier to be in a bar and drink a beer and say, hey, what's up, baby, how are you doing. Because you're not self-exposed, you're a liar. I think with having children that taught me that, because with children you have to be - I didn't cry my whole life, man, and I've been to all sorts of stuff. I mean, I got my daughter and, Christ, I cry three, four times a week because I'm so open, I'm so exposed. But then within that, you have this beautiful connection. That’s my suggestion to people, and it doesn't just speak back to specialty. Don't be all things to all people whether it's your personality or your medicine, just be that one thing, and then we just realized not everyone's going to come to me for pain and eyes. A lot of people will have other issues, they'll go see you or someone else - that's okay. You got to be okay with it. But that's hard to say that if you need to pay the rent, and there’s the rub. Dude, if I don't get paid for two or three years, I'll be fine, I don't care. But some people need money today to pay electric bill tomorrow.

Spence: Yeah. Sometimes those hard patients that aren't attracted by you being your authentic self or you chop them up to growth, and understanding what are you attracting and what aren't because I got a life that is lived. It is so simple, it is as simple as just if I can just be me, life is so much simpler.

Brad: But you got to be okay with people kicking your ass. That's the thing. Everybody wants to have ten million friends on Facebook. I have three, one’s my wife, one's my dog and one's her sister. I mean, I got no friends, but you got to be okay with that.

Spence: But you’ve got a following so you're a leader. And that's just because you're being yourself. I would have attested to that anyway, that you're just being who you are, and people love in this day and age where we've gone through generations of having the wool pulled over our eyes to sell product. Someone who's just like, yeah, this is me, like it or don't. I'm not really going to concern myself with that too much. I had someone put it to me once when you're 18 your world revolves around, oh my god, what are they going to think about me. When you're 40, you start thinking, I don't really give a shit what people think about me, and by the time you're 65, you're like no one's thinking about me anyway, so I'm going to do whatever the hell I want.

Brad: It's very true.

Spence: Yeah, I love it. Any final words? Like I said, I will put a ton of these or everything in the show notes here so people can kind of learn more about St. Helens or pinpoint or mastering Tung or Brad Whisnant seminars or, anyway, I’ll put them in the show notes.

Brad: I think the biggest thing is just to go to bradwhisnant.com. It's got all my stuff, you can find everything. Just failure and success, just keep banging and just find out who you are, and 2018 is going to be amazing, 2019 is going to be amazing, 2020 is going to be amazing. You just keep pushing and banging, and it just gets better and better every year. It's all good.

Spence: Thank you so much. I'm going to let you get to your patient obviously. Love you, man, and we'll chat. We’ll chat really soon, checkout bradwhisnant.com and the goldencabinet.ca. Any questions, fire away to us and we'll be so happy to chat. Brad, we'll chat very soon.

Brad: We'll do it again, man. Thank you, it was awesome.

Spence: Have a good day. Take care, buddy.