Interview with Clara Cohen
29/11/2017

Dr. Pentland: Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Golden Cabinet podcast. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with the lovely Clara Cohen. I’m excited about this because we go way back, and I know you have so much energy and so much to offer in terms of just even speaking and teaching on the medicine as well as the business side of things, so we’ll get into that. But just a little bit of housekeeping, first, if you haven’t already done so, go to our YouTube channel, subscribe there, leave comments. This will be posted also on our iTunes podcast and on the goldencabinet.ca website. And yeah, leave comments and interact because we’d love to get your feedback as well, and maybe Clara would even jump in and answer a few things there. But without further ado, welcome, Clara.

Clara: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here with you. Like you said, we go way back. We went to school together!

Dr. Pentland: Now that we’ve got that formality stuff out of the way, we can just chat. Like you were saying, the idea of this podcast, to start this podcast is simply to help as much as we can with whatever we can primarily from our practice building standpoint, but as well as any other little pearls or things that might be in a Golden Cabinet that could help. Because I know I said it, I say it all the time, you teach and you’ve seen so many generations, and I just think that acupuncture industry attracts such a great group of folk. It’s just such a pleasure. We always learned throughout our education to nurse deficiencies. I think the practice growth business, that side of things is a place where our industry needs to take some tonics, and that is kind of what this is for. Why don’t you give a little bit of rundown, I know Boucher and ICTCM has been your teaching platforms, you’ve created acuproacademy.com, which is a great resource for learning the medicine mostly and I think also some business tips of yours, because you have a clinic called Healing Cedar in Vancouver, or close by, that has been there for quite some time. You’ve been practicing since 2004. I know you’re an acupuncturist, you’ve got a team of 14, so, I know you’ve got some HR tips and tricks. I’m sure you spoke at cons. I know you did a talk about using five elements as a way of framing a way to approach practice growth, which is really interesting, and I would love you to talk about that if you can remember that time. And, of course, I’d just love to hear a little bit about your practice as well, but could you expand a little bit on your story so everyone gets a good sense of who you are.

Clara: Oh, my goodness, how much time do we have?

Dr. Pentland: No pressure, no pressure.

Clara: No question. Couple of things, I think I’m someone that wants to be happy. It is super important for me to be happy. What do you want to do in life, what you’re going to do when you grow up, when people ask that, most people have an idea: I want to be a teacher, I’m going to be an astronaut, whatever the person wants to be. I never had an idea of what I wanted to be. I just wanted to be happy. I know that everybody wants to be happy but that was my goal. If I’m not happy, I need to do something to shift it until I am happy. So, having said that, I moved to Canada from France to learn English because I thought, hey, it would be fun, I should learn English. Everybody else speaks it. I came here, that was my original goal. Then I stayed here with some friends and I ended up in the fitness industry, which I absolutely loved and I was happy doing that, having lots of friends in Canada. And then, one time, I think it was a Friday night, I was working, and I thought, I don’t want to do this till I’m 65, 70 years or whatever. It’s not really a passion. It’s enjoyable but I think I’m done. I need something more. This is not enough, this is not challenging me enough. I like challenges. This is kind of always the same and it’s not making me grow. So, I had grown to a certain level and I couldn’t grow any more. There was no more for me to go with the fitness industry. So, I thought, what do I need to do, what do I want to do? When I grow up, what do I want to do? I was already in my mid thirties. I was 22. I think most of us, a lot of us, go back to school and it’s a second career, it’s a second step for a lot of people, not everyone. I spent two years researching everything, from naturopathic medicine schools, chiropractic schools, massage therapy schools, of course TCM schools as well. I went and talked to practitioners that were already practicing, their feedback, their pearls, their everything. It took me two years to make that decision. I chose Chinese medicine for two reasons. Because I thought that it was something more challenging, interesting, something that I could keep learning for a long time. Massage therapy is the easiest way for a lot of people because it’s a short program and it’s easy to build a practice. But I didn’t feel that was what I wanted to do, plus I thought I will not have the strength to do that till I’m 70 years, you know, physically. So, chiropractic medicine for me way short-term. It was too quick. I love one-on-one relationship and it was too quick. My chiropractic adjusts to me. We see each other’s lessons, it’s 5 minutes, very quick. It’s effective but it was not what I wanted. Naturopathic medicine was very interesting to me. I grew up with all this. It was something I was interested in. Unfortunately, there was no school in B.C. at the time. You either had to go to Toronto, there was nothing in Vancouver, or you go to States, and I couldn’t live in the States. I’ve just moved to Canada a few years back, so, I wasn’t even a Canadian. I thought, you know what, TCM is what I want to do. Plus, it’s really focusing on one thing. It’s not just a little bit of something, it’s very focused, very specific. After two years that I made that decision, I chose the school to go to, I told everyone, my family, my friends, everybody. And everybody thought I was insane. Everyone!

Dr. Pentland: You are. That’s awesome.

Clara: Oh, yeah! Not one person said, good for you, this is a great idea. Everybody thought, what is wrong with you. You have a great job, five years in school, so many years in school, all this money for what? Acupuncture?? That’s ridiculous! So, I got defeated a little bit, but again, I wanted to be happy and that in my heart and my gut was what was going to challenge me again and which makes me happy. I love to learn. I didn’t listen to anybody. I just followed my heart. I went in, and I have to tell you, second to marrying my husband, this is probably the best decision I have ever made in my life. Going back and learning TCM. Absolutely, hands down. I always say, follow your gut. If you feel it’s wrong, don’t do it. If you feel it’s right, even if everybody else thinks this is not right, follow your gut. Because this is what’s good for you. It was not good for them but it was good for me. That is how I met you.

Dr.Pentland: I remember meeting you in school, and I think you and I were always in a very friendly competition to be here in our class, and that was great. You were always such a hard worker. I remember you probably doing the Grouse Grind before school started. I don’t remember exactly but you were definitely a bit of a fitness nut and I love that, just passion, I just love passion in anybody, and you’re clearly are bursting with it. Rewinding a little bit, what in your childhood, or what like leading up to adulthood motivated you toward health and fitness? Was there anything that made you a shift or like was there a parental…?

Clara: Yes, there was a couple of things. I think a quick story on “essence deficiency”. Since this is a TCM broadcast talk, I was definitely born with essence deficiency or a damaged gene in my birth post-natal. My mom smoked two packs of cigarettes a day because she was French while she was pregnant. She also drank alcohol, not much, on a daily basis like a French woman would. She worked really hard and I was born 10 weeks pre-mature. I always liked to joke about that I was “unfinished”. I had scoliosis as a kid. I was sick all the time, I had asthma, all those things. Things got better, my scoliosis got rectified. I had to wear brace for a couple of years. I had acupuncture, I had chiropractic, I had physiotherapy, I had so many therapies to rectify my spine, which I did. My mom was a single mother, working minimum wage, and we had never had money, we had never had anything, and I always complained we had no money. She would say, it doesn’t matter, as long as we have our health, that is the most important thing. Because without our health, all the money in the world would not do anything. And she was right, because once I feel better, and I’m not sick all the time, I have no asthma attacks, I feel good. She is right. It’s a much better way to be, even if we don’t have money, I can get it, but the health is something that I need to hold on to and protect. So, protecting my gene, my essence. So, I grew up with mother that her thoughts were that health is number one. It’s a most important thing in life. She is so right. You can have all the money in the world, and if you are sick – I always think of Christopher Reeves, he was a full of energy person and after the accident happened, yes, he was a Superman…he has all the money in the world, which makes it all more comfortable, but his life changed and nothing could help it. He was gone. He did in the end leave earlier than he was supposed to. So, health is number one. For me, I was always passionate about trying to keep my post-natal chi, energy strong and healthy, because my pre-natal was crap. I was always interested in nutrition and staying healthy the best I can. I was always reading about health stuff trying to keep myself healthy. Health industry fell on my lap. I’ve had never been to an aerobic class in my life but I’ve seen on TV in France, so I just walked into a club, I took a class for fun and the owner loved my energy. She offered me a job. I was like, but I don’t know what I am doing, and she said, I’ll pay for your course, you will be certified and you’re going to work for me, I love your attitude. That is how it all started.

Dr. Pentland: Yes, no turning back.

Clara: Which is interesting, because teaching fell on my lap too, because I never knew that I would end up teaching. I absolutely loved it and I found passion for teaching. It was literally a fluke, just a fluke. I went to school to get my transcripts and at the school, I was asked, could you teach in two days. I go, what, and she goes, we have a class starting in two days, we have nobody that could teach this class, can you teach it in two days. I go like, I don’t know how to teach, I wouldn’t even know what I would be doing. She said, think about it, and that’s how it all started. I said yes because I felt bad that they hadn’t anybody to teach. So, a lot of things fall in your lap sometimes, but maybe you look for them.

Dr.Pentland: Well, I feel if I may, just knowing you how I do, I feel like you approach life quite openly, and you’re just very authentic with everybody here today and about your past, but you’re open. You don’t come across as a closed door in any way shape or form. So, I would postulate that that key quality might be why things come to you, because you’re open to it. That simple communication with the universe that says, you know what, I’m open and you’re in flow. When you’re in flow, things come or God rolls our red carpet. It’s easy when you don’t have to make decisions. You had them kind of made for you, which is awesome. I rewind a little bit. I’m curious because I know I don’t know you well enough, but I want to touch on, and I’m going to touch on this with everyone, because I think it’s a stumbling block within our industry a lot. We have no herbs or acupuncture points to treat our allergies to money and business, but you said you grew up without largely, so, what triggered your change in manifesting abundance in your life, financially, wealth, both well-being and in finances, like how did you get around that?

Clara: Yes, there’s a couple of things, for sure. While growing up, my mom taught me a lot of things. Besides health, she also taught me, whatever you want in life, you can accomplish. As long as you don’t hurt anybody in the process, you can accomplish anything you want. She always said that. Whatever you want to do, and I was like, oh, that is good to know. I can do whatever I want. It’s not that easy, because you realize that you have to work really hard in your life. But she always said that, no matter what you put your mind to, if you work hard, you will get there. I saw her working hard and I know that sometimes you need to work hard. There’s stumbling blocks, there’s building blocks. There’s things that are going to slow you down, but if you are dedicated and you’ve got your focus. I think there are a couple of things that changed my belief. One of the things was I saw a friend of mine running a marathon and I thought that was really cool. She goes, oh, you can do this too, and I said I cannot run a marathon, I’m not a runner. Even though I was in a fitness industry, running was not my thing. I like to hike. I’m not a runner and she says, anybody can do it. When I went to see her at the marathon, there were a lot of people crossing the finish line. There were people of every ages. There were people way over 70. There were people that could barely go across the finish line, they were having such a struggle, but they did it, they finished it. It didn’t matter whether it took them five or six hours. So, then I started thinking, that was an interesting challenge. Can I run a marathon? Well, let’s see first of all if I can run 30 minutes. So, I made a schedule for myself. And this is the same for TCM practice. If you have a goal, whatever the goal is, you need to know what the goal is, of course, like with the marathon goal, you need to have a plan. So, my plan was, I’m going to get a book and I’m going to start reading on how do you start running. There was no Google at the time, so I bought a book. I bought a book and then I started running. I made a plan that three times a week, I was going to try to last 30 minutes, either walk or run. So the book said, start walking and running alternately. I did that three times a week and I had a goal for about two months to do this. And when I say run, I mean jogging nice and slow for 30 minutes. And two months later, guess what? I’m running, jogging for 30 minutes three times a week. I’m like, wow, okay then. Then I literally thought, okay, I’ll now buy a book on how to prepare for a marathon, and I planned which marathon I was going to do, and I planned seven months back, and every week, I planned everything. How I was going to increase my run time every week or every second week all the way until the marathon. Everything was planned, what I was going to do for everything. I followed that even though sometimes I was tired or I had taught seven aerobics classes that week but I still went running. Or it was pouring rain in Vancouver and it was just awful to run, I would go for half an hour to run. Then I went to Calgary to run a marathon, which was Calgary in the summer, it was on 4th of July. I arrived on 3rd of July, it was sunny, it was a beautiful day, 17 degrees. For people that have been to Calgary apparently, you’ve got to watch because weather can change very quickly. The next morning, I wake up, my husband opens the curtains and goes, oh, my gosh. I said, what’s happening. It’s like a foot of snow outside. It’s -5. It’s Calgary. Apparently, the weather can change in summer as well. He is like, are you still going to do this. I’m like, I’ve trained for 7 months, we are here, I’m going to do this. I’m not going to give up now. This is the finish line. I went there, this is a building block. This is a roadblock for me, because when I get there half of the people are not here. Now, it’s turned to slush because it’s pouring rain, and it’s 42km. If you do this in miles, it’s 26 miles, it’s insane. I went, I started running, and all I could here was my shoes going slush, slush, slush. I was soaked. It was just awful. I thought I was going to collapse. But all of a sudden there was a marker and it said, ‘41km’, there was one left to go. All I could think was, oh, my God, I did this. Literally, at 41 kilometers, I started sprinting because I got so excited. I don’t know but that is where you get your inner strength. You are exhausted and you are thinking you’re going to collapse, and suddenly, your inner strength tells you, I’m now giving up, this is the best part. So, I crossed the finish line and they put the medal around your neck, and my husband like hugged me and I burst crying, like a little young, sobbing like a four-year old. He is like, what’s wrong, are you hurt, and I go, I’m so happy.

Dr. Pentland: Tears of joy.

Clara: It was a joy, because all I could think is, oh, my gosh, I can do anything I put my mind to. My mom is right. Because I never thought it was possible to run 42 kilometers, not for me anyway, but that changed my belief in the fact that I couldn’t run apparently but now I can. And I did this. So, now I can do anything, the world is my oyster, the sky is my limit. That like totally changed my perspective, absolutely.

Dr. Pentland: Maybe people having a tough time or believing, I think we’re our own worst enemy. We self-sabotage, we convince ourselves that we can’t, the internal dialogue kind of dictates who we are. You mentioned mindset shift and goal setting, so, your story just highlighted those two things. But the motivator, thankfully to that mindset shift, was your mom. Would you recommend for people that find themselves maybe in a bit of a rut and their self-defeating mental talker to take on some sort of challenge like a marathon, or outside of their practice so they can like find confidence within their own spirit, and that will translate into their practice or set a big goal of some sort – is that something you would recommend probably to people?

Clara: Yes. I totally get what you’re saying. I think people need to change their belief and it’s not easy to change your belief. If your belief is whatever it is, it could be anything in any aspect of life. I’ll never found my person, whatever your person is, the person that you feel comfortable with, that you’re really happy with, that connects really well with you, whoever that person is, how many people think they’ll never found that person. Well, then if you believe that, then you will never found that person. That’s just the way it is. But if you truly want to find that person, then you need to believe there is a person out there for you that’s your person. And you need to change that. I think we all have a belief in anything, and some are great because they propel us forward, and some are bad because they keep us from trying or from getting what exactly we would deserve actually. I think that’s very true when it comes to money. I think money’s always been painted as this bad thing, but I’m thinking why, like why is it that money or making money or making enough money that you are happy with, because everybody has a different amount of money that they like to make. Some people are great and happy making a thousand dollars a month when other people want a million dollars a month, whatever it is. But whatever it is that you think would fulfill your needs, because that’s what money does. It’s not necessary to go wow, I’m rich, I can buy all the expensive things that I want. It’s not about that, it’s about giving to others, it’s about helping with charities. If Bill Gates didn’t have a lot of money he wouldn’t be helping all those charities he is helping. Charities depend on people that are going to give. People can give money when they have it. So, it’s not a bad thing, plus money can help you pay your student loans so you stop worrying. You have all this money, that’s what money is for. It’s great because you can take your person out to dinner or your kids to Disneyland, whatever it is that makes someone else happy. You actually give happiness to somebody. And it’s not just about money, of course, you can give your time to people, you can give a lot of things to people, but money makes it easier. That’s just a way it is. I know that because I grew up without it, I grew up with no money. I know what it is to have some and to not have some. I have to tell you, having some, much better.

Dr. Pentland: I believe that. On a clinical level, I have a relationship with my, that I’m always working on as well too because I understand the benefits that you just kind of listed off of inviting abundance into your life. I, like you, have receptionist that take the money and work with their patient and bookkeepers, accountants that tell me what’s going on, and a wife that tells me what to do with the money after. I find that asking for money, in return for such a beautiful skillset that people have generally, acupuncturists, their care, their support, and it is something that it’s hard to get over, but it’s something that we all need to really get in touch with. Because people usually only have money to barter with unless they want to bake you a lot of muffins every week or whatever that might be, and people feel value in something if they’re paying for it. It shows that it creates a sales term but a buy-in. So, part of what we do is about influencing and convincing people that you can help support them along their healing journey to the goal that they desire or the dream that they desire in some cases, and that is hard to put a dollar amount on. I’m sure you’ve had acupuncturists has come to you or are charging very little, or just have that like adversity with money and medicine as it being these two things that can merge, whereas I like to step into the arena, where a good business and a good doctor both want to solve the problem of the person in front of them. So, it can also be a good marriage.
What ways have you put into place to help — I like to use the word currency because it’s more flowing, to help money flow through you and into, obviously, you’re helping support 14 people at your clinic, and that’s their lives. They’re each helping so many people that come into your practice. So, to me, the benefits are easy, but what kinds of advice do you give when students or new practitioners come to you and say, I am having trouble with this part and my practice isn’t growing?

Clara: I think a lot of us had troubled at the beginning, and I don’t know why it’s hard to value that you spend years, whatever it is, three years, four years, five years at school, you spend your time, your energy, your tears sometimes and you finance, your money sometimes, you have to sacrifice a lot of, parents who have kids, all those kind of things. You don’t think that all this you put to get this education so you can help other people, and that should be valued. This is a high currency value. What I found interesting is when I was in the fitness industry, no personal trainer feels bad about charging to help someone with the fitness goal, which most of time, all you could say is, okay, well, here’s the exercise and then go do the exercise. But the people are, no, no, I need you to teach, you know, be with me along the way, that’s what personal training is. So, do you keep coaching me to do what you tell me to do, because I don’t want to do it on my own. I am okay to pay you for this is literally motivation. And there is no problem with that. You are paying the personal trainer, that’s what I did. I was a personal trainer for people, you’re paying me. I’ve had actually people saying, I make decisions all the time, and I don’t want to make a decision. You tell me what to do, I’ll just follow it, that’s easier for me, and I’ll pay you to literally motivate me to do something that I can’t do on my own. You can’t do acupuncture on your own. So, if you are paying a personal trainer, what’s the difference paying an acupuncturist first of all?

Dr. Pentland: Good call, good call. I think that kind of spins us back to such an altruistic group of the people that are attracted to acupuncture. I even hate using that terminology because that somehow is setting acupuncturists apart, because we don’t want to equate money to our medicine. Maybe it’s partly Canada or France, where we’ve grown up in a little bit more of a socialist medicare systems, where physicians and money are never put in the same sentence. But all these things you say as well, I think one of the solutions I’ve come up with for myself is I’ve got to take myself out of my ego, get myself out of the way, because it’s not actually about me, it’s about the person that’s coming to me and their goals and the value that they perceive. For some people that come to me, they would pay me $500 a session just because of what they get from it, and how that changes the rest of their life. In that coaching piece, we’re there with them, we support. It’s what we do as acupuncturists largely. I know your practice is similar to mine, we spend some time with our patients. It’s important. So, there’s that perceived value, and then, you’ve got receptionists in place that actually handle the money, and that is to me a nice separation. The energy of them being together, I understand that. But when you’ve got something in place that’s been a major mindset, but thank you for those pieces on money, they are fantastic.
I wanted to touch back on it, and I think this is your strength, is in the show notes you wrote in during our time together what would you like to talk about, and you used one word and it was grit, and I love that. I know you well enough to know that, yeah, Clara understands a hard work, she’s not afraid of it, she feeds on it. And how much does that play a role really, rolling up your sleeves and getting the work done? How has that helped you grow your practice?

Clara: I watched a TED talk, of course, we’ve all watched so many TED talks, but I watched a TED talk on that, and I was like, oh, this is exactly, the guy, he was talking about that grit, and it just completely clicked for me. Because I’m always thinking, for me or for anybody, to be able to achieve whatever it is you’re trying to achieve or you want, you need passion and dedication. So, with dedication I mean consistency, hard work, continuing, never giving up, even when there’s like roadblocks and things that are going to stop you and difficulties, I guess. But it needs to be consistent, you can’t just put to try one thing and say, oh, it didn’t work, what’s the point of continuing. You need to be passionate about whatever you are doing, whatever it is that is propelling you forward. If you’re not passionate about this medicine, for example, about what you were doing, which is not only the medicine but helping people using that medicine that you acquired, the knowledge you acquired in school. If you’re passionate about helping people and using that medicine and you’re dedicated and hardworking, that’s grit. It’s like, you don’t give up because you believe it. There’s so many people out there that have never given up. And you hear those stories all the time. What’s his name? Jack Campbell, who did the Chicken Soup for the Soul series. This is the guy that had an idea and then went to 141 publishers, and everybody thought it was stupid and you could have given up. Then 142nd thought it was a great idea. It’s like number one series in the world of millions, translated and different. So, you have to be dedicated, you believe you are dedicated by consistency and then you can’t give up. That’s important. And that’s why I think a lot of students, going back to what we’re talking earlier, a lot of students get finished school, and some of them get excited and then they don’t get busy, they don’t make an income and they have to support themselves with another job or with family members, and then they get defeated, what’s the point to keep going. I’m thinking, you can’t give up first of all, and then there’s that money piece that comes into play, where people want to help but they have that barrier, that belief that they will fail with money and exchange of money like you were saying. Something I say to my students all the time is, you know, if you feel icky about this money thing, then again, like you said, it’s not about me, it’s not about my ego, it’s about helping this person. So, just tell them what you can do for them and what you believe what this person is required for them to reach whatever journey they came to you for help, they came to you for whatever it is that they want to do. This is what you think they require. In my opinion, if we do X, Y, Z, and you come twice a week, let’s do this for a month, see where that comes, let’s book all those, let’s go from there. Like, explain to them, give them the educational peace. They can refuse and never come back, or they can go, okay, because that’s why I came for help. I came to ask you for help. If you don’t tell me what the plan is, then that’s it. So, that’s the plan, let’s start and see where that goes, and then this person feels like, okay, you’re helping me. If you don’t give them an educational piece on how your treatment plan is about to go because you feel like, oh, I can’t book them for the next three, four, five times that feels, like, I’m pushy, I’m like the car salesman. I’m pushy. You are not pushy, they came for help. Will you not want to help them? That’s the whole point.

Dr. Pentland: If that’s what you recommend. And what you believe will help them. It’s your duty to lay out a treatment plan that you believe will be effective. One that you think will, like, accommodate their financial picture.

Clara: Exactly, it has to be ethic. It has to be ethically right on both ends. Like ethically right in a way that if someone comes to me and I know there’s probably not much I can do, or I can say until you lose the weight, your back pain is not going to go away, because he’s a man that looks like he’s nine months pregnant. I’m not going to say that but you know what I mean. Until you lose some weight, because the person has a big belly, I can help you with the back pain, managing it, but the cause is there. That’s not going to be helpful. You have to be truthful and ethically right in your explanation. Yet, if somebody else comes in and says, I’ve just sprained my ankle, I’m like, oh, this is going to be great, let’s do this. Because I know, I’ve seen it. Acupuncture is going to help you right out. So, ethically, it goes on both ways. You can’t let that person walk away and not be booked because you think they’re going to pay again. I want you to get better.

Dr. Pentland: Those are fantastic examples from the medical side. The sad part of some of this, which I’ve seen, is people being too shy or whatever the difficulty is with asking for money in exchange for their service or their skill set, the acupuncture, is that if the treatment plan recommended isn’t clearly laid out and the patient doesn’t come back enough to actually see the results, then they’re another person out there in the world saying I tried acupuncture, it didn’t really work for me. It’s bad PR for everybody. This is all great. Thank you for all of your thoughts, because it’s a topic I want to touch on a lot with whoever I bring on here is. The barriers between money if we can somehow get through that I think our industry will flourish, and I’m seeing it more and more in the West at least. There’s more clinics like yours or mine that are growing to a place where they’re employing others. What I love about Yinstill is that I’ve got practitioners there that because I love the entrepreneurial side, as I know you do, that it allows the artists of the practitioners that are a part of the team at Yinstill to remain that. Because that is truly where the strength lies. I encourage people that do have the grit and understand it, and that are wavering over should I have my own space or should I try and grow things. If you feel you’ve got the wherewithal and the grit and the entrepreneurial spirit to move and do it, because it’s so rewarding to help other people also build their practice and have a life and be able to practice acupuncture full-time as much as they want to, to sustain their life. When people are comfortable in that and their practice is full, that’s when you start practicing really great medicine I found. Because your worries about your schedule and your money are lessened, and you’re truly in there. Literally, I have said to patients, I’m busy, it doesn’t matter to me whether or not you come back but this is what I recommend and this is what I truly believe will help you. You can kind of take that here. Wherever you go, that’s what I believe will help you. There’s so many advantages to stepping into our practices from a holistic perspective. The business, which is more the yang, and the practice, which is more the yin. We practice holism and preach it. We should be stepping into that. Thank you. You also talked about building relationships. In the Golden Cabinet, I’ve got a couple of courses I know you went through, your virtual clinic. And that’s creating relationships with other health care practitioners, and then strategic alliances, which are other members and organizations and businesses in your community that would serve your patient population as well, other resources and that so. Is that kind of what you’re talking about, the importance of building relationships or were you talking more about in the clinic or can you expand on that?

Clara: Yeah, it’s everywhere. I think I have three places I like to kind of look at building relationship, but I think building relationship is what really, at least for me, has made a huge impact on my practice, so, it’s a big, big part of my practice. Number one is of course you need to get the patients in. When the patients are in, it’s building relationship with patients. That is a number. It’s really having a good rapport with all your patients, because they’re the referral train. They will send you train loads of people.

Dr. Pentland: If you get results that are nice to them.

Clara: Of course. That’s exactly. That’s because you build a relationship, and obviously a good relationship. You build relationships with patients in different ways. First, by obviously caring about what you’re trying to do to help them. That’s the number one. By going above and beyond what they’re expecting, giving them an experience of like it’s their first time, they’ve never had acupuncture. You take the time to listen, to answer questions, you treat them as an equal, that’s super important. We are on an equal level here, so, that’s super important. You really, really relate to them, understand them, be compassionate, and all those things are going to make that first step towards that first relationship. And what I usually like to do is within 48 hours after the first treatment is to call the patient and say, hey, I just want to check in. I don’t email, and if the person’s not here, I leave a message, I’m just calling to check that you feel great after the treatment, did you have any question that I didn’t answer, let me know. So, they know it’s not like you came and they forgot about you. Even though this person’s booked to come back next week and I know they’re coming back, I just wanted to follow up to know they are okay. Because sometimes they have a question or there’s a side effect. Oh, it’s bad, I have a bruise, what happened. You can reassure them that it’s okay, that happens. Bruises can occur. But then reassurance will bring them relief. Or they forgot to ask me something when they were in the clinic. I think that’s important to really build relationship with patients, and in regard to also what patients need, other modalities. It’s like, oh, have you ever tried chiropractic treatment, because I know someone that you could have it if you want to. That might also help, or have you ever been tested for allergies, or maybe a naturopath might be a good idea. Like, things that I know can complement what I’m doing so they get on the road faster. It’s super important. So, building relationships with patients, number one for sure, absolutely. And I’ve done things where a patient — what happened to me literally on Christmas Eve, a patient sent me an email and said, I haven’t slept in three days. And that patient I didn’t see for insomnia at all. I just don’t know what to do, I’m going crazy, it’s Christmas, I’m just yelling at everybody, my kids, my husband – I just don’t know what to do. And I said, you know what, we were having a dinner with my husband and my in-laws and I said, you want to meet me in the clinic in an hour. I’ll give you a treatment, you’ll sleep well tonight, and I did. We met, we had a treatment. But this is what you do because you love what you do. I’m not saying that, yes, you have to do this all the time but you have to follow your gut. I said this person needs me right now. I’m going to go, I’m going to do it, it’s not bothering me. We did this and she slept well, and she was so happy. So, going above and beyond and making sure your patients are treated the way they’re supposed to be treated because they are entrusting you with their care really. Either you’re ethically telling them you can’t help them because sometimes you can’t, or you are there for them, and that’s a journey we’re taking together for the long time, the long term. That’s number one, relationship with your patients, big time for me. I have patients that when they fill in an in-take form, where it says how did you hear about my services, I would say that 90% of them say, this person, this person, my friend so and so. It is always a patient of mine, maybe 10% is the website or whatever, which when you first start, I guess that would be a good way to start, but your patients are going to be your best advocate. That’s why it’s super important to be on time for little things like this, where it is important to be on time. Yes, sometimes you can be behind because something happened. I always apologize. I’m so sorry for being behind, thank you for waiting, and that’s a little thing. But that’s an ego thing, some people will not say that because doctors made you wait for three hours. So, if I made you wait for 15 minutes, why should I apologize? Treat people like you would want to be treated. Treat me with respect.
Those little details make for the big picture, that’s for sure.

Dr. Pentland: I believe that from a business perspective, the people that you take care of, your patients that you satisfied, that even if you don’t necessarily fix what they came to you for, if you built a good relationship with them, and it was honest and authentic and you did your best, those people will still send people to you. It is those little things that there’s results and then there’s patient experience. They are both almost equally as important. And that is what forms, I call it your unpaid sales force, and probably your best long-term marketing plan if you want to put it plain and simple is that people that are going to just go and tell people about you for free. It’s no advertising dollars, no anything. But a key to that in my opinion is maintaining a relationship with them long-term. Once they’re done with you, never talking to them again, also shows that you weren’t fully in, or somehow they were still just a patient. And I like professional, I call them maybe professional friendships that you can develop with patients, and there’s a line that people are concerned about crossing. But if it’s always meant with loving intention, it’s what you should be striving toward. Because part of what we do well I think is connecting, because we’ve got the time. Creating a support system sometimes, especially with what we do at Yinstill, people won’t get pregnant every cycle and that’s what we focus on. Obviously, we’re supporting people through a lot of failure, but we’re there for them and we’re a support versus a fix. And that’s where experience, everything from how they look and feel when they walk in the front door to how they’re greeted to the tea and the smell and the sound, and how all the senses are tickled. I fear because I was there that it probably boils down to, and you’re saying building trust and I would add confidence to that, especially in an initial consultation with someone. You are, for lack of a better term, selling them on the fact that you can be there for them in various ways and hopefully help them toward their goal. When you’re new, the confidence is lower, and you’re really leaning on the medicine so much that like the patient experience part is out of the picture. I would encourage, as you just did, thank you so much for touching on that to, it’s probably even more important when you’re just starting out to focus on the whole patient experience. Because of the deficiencies you have in confidence, so they at least, feel really warm and welcome and happy. Do you agree with that?

Clara: I absolutely agree with that. Especially I think for me at the beginning, because I had nobody. I didn’t have anybody in my first week in practice second week and third week in practice, I had nobody, like, nobody, which gave me lots of time to try to figure out that. So, people feel bad for me and then they come to help me. But the good part of the beginning specifically is you have the time, you’re not in a rush, you’re not busy. So, at the beginning, even though it says my first consultation would be an hour, I’d be spending an hour and a half with them, because you’re giving them the extra time. And like you said, you give them tea, we are having tea, we are exchanging, this is a new relationship and make sure that the light is dim and there’s warmth and there’s music. It’s a whole experience because you want to make sure that they made the right decision in coming to look for treatment to help them in their journey. I think that’s super important at the beginning, absolutely. And this is why it’s important to also educate the patient in what we can do or also help them figure out what the root cause of the problem is. As we know in conventional medicine, a lot of time, as you and I know, with fertility treatment for example, a lot of times they are diagnosed with unexplained infertility. Unexplained means that they can’t find that anything is wrong with them, everything is perfectly fine, why can’t you get pregnant. In TCM, even though we can’t help everyone, absolutely not, we can always figure out the root cause. It doesn’t mean we can help, because whatever that root cause is. But we can always figure out what is the cause. And a lot of time I see with patients who have unexplained infertility is emotional, the long-term emotional that’s blocking that area. If I explain that to them, because I realize what’s going on in their life, and then telling them that because of whatever emotional issues they’ve had, this is what’s creating problem. People get it, and when they understand it, they feel better. They feel like someone has given them a little bit of a light at the end of the tunnel, because there’s a cause, everybody wants to know the cause. It doesn’t mean that we’re going to fix it per se, we’re going to try our best to do what we can. At least it’s better than unexplained, no one likes to know unknown. I think we can give a sense of understanding, which makes a sense of hope, which makes it better, because then you relax into it and that’s how when you are more relaxed you can get pregnant. There’s all those little things that we can provide that I found that sometimes are not provided by conventional medicine, because they have the tools. It’s not that it is bad, it’s just a different tool.

Dr. Pentland: Right off the start, having that extra experience, I think it would be the default in those busy weeks, where there’s not patients coming in. Or schedules, people often utilize that time as freedom to go out and do whatever they want, which is great I understand that, but you have to understand the grit part and perseverance. It’s good to study the medicine and keep continuing with that education, of course, but I would encourage people to divide some of that free time between how can I holistically better serve my potential patient population versus just what formulas am I going to use if there’s being spleen chi deficiency and then there’s dampness below. Like, okay, we’ve got to take care of the person as well. I think we get so passionate sometimes about the medicine in our industry that we forget about all else. Because that is the rule.

Clara: And that’s the thing. That’s why I think the educational piece and building relationship is important, because I think we see that with our patients a lot. If I help someone for back pain, they don’t know that acupuncture can help insomnia. If I help someone with insomnia, oh, I had no idea you could do something for menstruation. My sister, she had that painful menstruation for years, and I didn’t that acupuncture can help that. So, there’s an educational piece of all the stuff you can do that it’s not just what the person is focused on. But the second, building relationship for me is if you are working in a multidisciplinary place, or you’re working in a place where there’s other people, your colleague for example has a few different people that are not just TCM. Maybe you are in an environment that is just TCM, but most people, they’re going to work with other discipline. And what I would think is to build relationship first of all with your front staff or your support staff. It’s important that they understand what you can do, what your medicine does so they all have a free treatment. Do you know what? Because they’re the far front, they are the person that answers the phone. When someone calls and says, oh, my baby is blue. Do you know if there is anybody that can do anything for me. If you don’t know that acupuncture is going to help, you are going to go, oh, let me find out, I don’t know, that takes time. And they called somebody else in the meantime, and who knows. It’s very important that my front staff all have had acupuncture, and they get it on a regular basis. They understand what it does, what it feels like in a way. So, it’s important. And then also the people in your clinics, everybody, the massage therapists have acupuncture, the MD has acupuncture, so really, understand how you treat, what you do, and it’s vice versa. I’ve had my massage therapists, so when one of my patients was like, well, who do you recommend for me. They are all very good massage therapists but they all have their own different little niche technique. I can propel them towards who I think is best for them because I care about my patient’s outcome. That’s important, that we exchange and we all know each other very well. Building relationship within your practice, if you are in a practice where you’re by yourself, or it’s not what I’m describing here, you need to build relationship, and that’s why I did that at the beginning. At the beginning, I was renting a room I was not really with a bunch of people that were communicating. There was no reception. I was doing my own thing. I went and built relationships with people in my community, chiropractics, naturopathic doctors, massage therapists. I went and I got rejected by a lot of people. That’s the grit. You go and knock on all doors, and you say, hey, this is what I do, I’d like to give you a free treatment. Some people are like, no, thank you, bye-bye lady. But you’ve got the grit thing we talked about, you’re going to keep going and then you form a middle group of people that suddenly become your core. Of course, you get treatment for them too, because you want to make sure that they are the kind of people that you would like to refer to. So, building relationships with your peers, super, super important.

Dr. Pentland: That’s the virtual clinic which I had mentioned before. That’s the term I give it, because they’re not necessarily within your space but you are right as well. Within a multidisciplinary clinic, we are all Chinese medicine except one, naturopathy, but within that, the naturopath has to do absolutely zero besides educate us, what she can do, and how she can complement us and not step on our toes. But how she can complement our practices, and she hasn’t had to put any efforts toward external marketing. In a multidisciplinary clinic, it’s like if you build trust in those other practitioners, they’ll send you patients as well, which is super awesome. These are great, great tips. A lot of them mean you got to get out there and talk to other people, weird. I know you talked a little bit about online marketing that I don’t know if we’ll get to that, but I mean that the relationship also bleeds into public speaking, it bleeds into having the balls or the ovaries to step into physicians’ offices or put yourself out there into communities, where you’re scared to communicate, but it also helps you get down path, what you do do, and how to deliver that to people so you’re not fumbling over your words, and for you that would have been twice the journey, in English. But super important that you can succinctly get across to people, how it is that you might be able to help them, like, people’s attention spans are shrinking drastically. It’s crazy. I don’t want to keep you too long but there’s a couple more things I want to kind of touch on here. Are there things that you would recommend absolutely people stop doing, or should do a lot less of, or things that they shouldn’t waste their time, or marketing budget on, just some don’ts?

Clara: That’s a big one. Thanks for reminding me of that, because that’s so many ideas, my poor brain. What I’ve seen so many people do with their websites, they’re so excited about acupuncture that they want to put like a Chinese statue with all the meridians, or they want to put acupuncture needles on a body, and I’m always thinking why do you do this, the website is not about you, it has nothing to do with you. It has to do with helping people. I always really refer to the website of a dentist. I don’t like the dentists, not my favorite thing, but if you go to the website of the dentist, they have a beautiful smile, this woman has a smile on her face. You don’t see her with her mouth open and the guy with the instrument in her mouth because that would freak me out, so, they don’t do that, because they know the process to get to the end is now what we want to see. It’s the same idea, yes, you can get acupuncture but seeing a person with needles in them is not what you’re looking for, you’re looking for the results. Your website has a couple with a woman that’s pregnant, and that’s the result. Someone is pregnant, because that’s what we do with infertility. If you’re doing a lot of musculoskeletal issues, then put someone that’s running, you put acupuncture injury, free running, whatever it is. You don’t put someone hurt, you put someone that’s happy, is running down the road or up the hill. It’s something that you want to show, like, if you do cosmetic acupuncture, you put a picture of before and then after with less wrinkles and a face that looks much better after acupuncture. But you don’t put a picture of the person with 50 needles in her face because that’s going to freak everybody else. Don’t put needles, just put the outcome, what do you want to propel, what those people look for. Yes, result focus. I think that’s the first thing not to do. Another thing that I would say is interesting is another marketing but within that relationship with patients in that communication. And that takes time, because at first when you first start your practice, it’s much harder to do so. It’s practice, I get that, but don’t tell people they have spleen chi deficiency. Because it doesn’t mean anything. Oh, your kidney yang is so depleted. Okay, so my kidneys are in trouble, another thinking, oh, my god I have some kind of kidney disease. If you say that to people, they say what’s wrong with me, and you say, oh, yeah, you know, you have kidney yang deficiency, it’s like you said you had a myocardial infarction. No doctor says that. Every doctor says you had a heart attack because people understand that, they don’t understand the medical jargon. So, we have to stop talking in TCM jargon, because nobody went to school for three, four, five years to understand what we’re talking about. If someone says, what’s wrong with me, instead of saying you have kidney yang deficiency, I’ll just say, well, the problem with you is you’re always cold, we need to warm you up. That’s the first thing that’s wrong with you, we need to warm you up. People understand that, that is easy. You’re fatigued all the time, we need to get that energy out. Because I see you’re depleted, you’re weakened, because that’s the root cause. You’ve been ‘go, go’, for so long that now you’re exhausted, this is what happened. Let’s talk about the cause and then tell them about the symptoms, but not necessarily tell them some TCM jargon. You have to stop doing that.

Dr. Pentland: That’s a great advice. Let’s just leave it there. I couldn’t agree more. If there’s the odd person that’s inquiring deeper and they’re interested, maybe have a coffee with them, but otherwise, yeah. You have to make it relatable. Let’s see, what mentors and coaches helped you along the way?

Clara: That’s an interesting question.

Dr. Pentland: Besides your mom.

Clara: Besides my mom. My mom was a good mentor. I read a lot of books on motivational and inspiring and all those things, and one person that I really, really ,really like and everybody knows, it is Anthony Robbins or Tony Robbins. I read all his books. I’ve actually seen him twice live. I love Tony Robbins for what he has to say. It really helped me figure out a lot of things. I guess it would be a mentor even though I’ve never met him. By the way, if you guys like Tony Robbins, he’s married to an acupuncturist, thank you very much. Apart from that, including Tony Robbins, every person I’ve ever read, always says you need to found a mentor in your industry. And I have to say that’s the hardest thing. It’s the hardest thing to find a mentor per se, to start with, just a mentor as it is, like someone that you can talk to or call. They always say, well, take this person out to lunch, then ask them a question and pay for them for a lunch. I always thought, and it’s interesting, and maybe that’s my weakness or mt belief, but I always thought why would someone come to lunch to spend their time when their time is so valuable. I know my time is valuable. It’s so valuable to come and have lunch with me, little me, just so I could pick their brain, while they could be doing something for them, not for me. And even though they get lunch. I’ve never really had a TCM mentor because of that. It’s interesting because as you know I teach, but this happened, the reversed thing. I have so many of my students who asked me for lunch and pick my brain and I loved to do it for them. I enjoyed to give my time and help them in answering their questions, yet, I don’t think someone would do that for me. So, maybe there’s a belief issue. I’ve had a virtual mentor, Marie Forleo is one of them as well, from Marie TV on YouTube. I like her videos. I’ve taken her courses as well, and I really like the way she sees marketing. She really, really helped me actually in marketing my practice without feeling like this was a high mountain peak. Like, I don’t know where to start, I don’t have technology background, how do I do this. Her courses were very valuable for me to try to understand how I go about understanding my patients, my audience, the potential patients out there, how to understand what they were looking for. She’s the one that talked about the avatar, a patient avatar. That really helped me in the sense of my practice per se.

Dr. Pentland: I think this boils down to I have a firm belief in finding people that can be virtual. They can be authors, they can be anybody, any influence really on you, in my opinion. And that is why I’m doing this podcast. Because I believe that our industry does need more of them and needs more examples of the talk genuinely and openly and authentically about their journey to becoming a successful acupuncturist like yourself. I’ve had Jason Stein on and I’ve got other people I want to get on here, because I am a believer that we all need help. There’s some of us that have fumbled through for 10, 20 years that actually can help a lot. I also love to chat about the stuff, obviously, I’m sitting here beaking off about it, and inviting you to chat about all these things, and I look forward to many years of helping younger or newer practitioners move in the right direction. They need to know who’s out there, like yourself, like myself. There’s lots of other examples out there. Now we’re starting to see them more, because it also matters who you have to resonate really deeply with someone, and see that it’s like if I was looking around, I would look at someone’s lifestyle. This is how I found mentors. If they’re living a life that’s similar to the one that I want, I want to know how they’ve got there. That’s why I want you on here, because people will see Clara and see your lovely shining personality, and you will attract the people that you’re going to be able to help. Because they want to be more like Clara or emanate your successes. That’s the rule of the Golden Cabinet. Thank you for sharing your mentors, of course, Tony Robbins. Yes, I bow down to him as well. I’ve been attending a few of his events as well. They’re epic. If you haven’t, you’ve got to. I don’t think you’ve lived till you’ve walked on fire.
I’ve got two last things and then I’ll let you go. I’m so sorry, it’s just such gold. If you’re not necessarily seeing all the gold within this podcast, trust me that it will start seeping in so many of the things that Clara has said. And you’ll be like, oh, yeah, she said that and it plants a seed. Tips and tricks I have for really tough times. Like, we all have shitty days. What do you do to kind of lift your spirits?

Clara: When you say shitty days, you mean like?

Dr. Pentland: Just a period in life, because that obviously affects your practice. When I see my team at Yinstill, when I see their schedule faltering, I inquire about their life because I know their life is just their schedules or reflection of what’s happening in their life. That’s my job as the leader of Yinstill and my life to really drill down to the human level and say, what’s going on with you, are you okay, you know and, wow, there’s marital issues or whatever it is, and you’ll see it. When there’s tough times, I know you probably go hike a mountain or something.

Clara: Yeah, that is true. Again, there’s a couple of things I do. I know people say, oh, you’re so positive and stuff, but there is a time when I definitely feel down and I feel stuck. I feel like things are not going very well, it’s not good. And because I’m very sensitive, that affects me deeply very quickly. So, I really do these three things. I go out, absolutely. So, it’s hiking the mountains, one of my favorite thing to do or play tennis with my husband and try to kick his butt at tennis, which is not very easy but that makes me feel good like. It releases the endorphin. The second thing I try to do is remember and focus on all the good parts, because it’s so easy to focus on all the bad part because it’s going bad, but you can’t forget the attitude. So, like, one of my patients last week said to me, and I think they’ll stay with me for a long time, she’s 14 years old. She’s been coming for a few weeks and she said to me, Clara, I was in science class this week and we had to finish this project with my team but everybody else has finished so we had to wait, we sat there for ten minutes, and all I could think was, I wish I was in acupuncture right now. I was like, oh, my god, that was the best thing ever. It’s sweet, but that’s what I want to focus on, on people that say things like this. If you’re having a bad day because something happened within the clinic, someone was unhappy or something happened, focus on all the other things, like that girl that said that to me. For me, that’s what I want to focus on, on the fact that you’ve helped so many people. The tough criteria are when you are a little bit of trying to be a perfectionist. I think our profession does have a lot of those people, and let’s say 80% or 90% of your patients are towards their journey, and you can see progress and you can see when things are going well, but then there’s 10%, nothing is working, you feel like you are failing them. And again, that’s that ego thing. It shouldn’t be about me but you feel like you’re failing them. So, it’s tough. Because maybe there’s someone you have to let go and you have to just say, you know what, maybe I’m not the right person and you got to let go of that. And you got to focus on the other thing. Instead of focusing on the negative, it’s focusing on the positive. I really try to hang on to the positive. If someone is having a bad day at the clinic or something is happening, then I want to focus on all the other pieces that are working so well together. Because I’ve weathered some storms in my life, I always think, yes, it’s funny and it’s easy to say after the rain comes sunshine, but it is true, you will never ever stay here, it’s always having flows. If you are at the bottom, you’ll get up again, and you might get to the bottom again. It’s knowing that there’s always a shift that’s going to happen. Life changes every day. Sometimes it takes longer and that’s the tough part. But it is always focusing on there is an end of the tunnel always, because remember when you had a bad time, you got out of there. Focus on the positive and go play outside.

Dr. Pentland: Awesome. Those are great, great tips. Lastly, if there was one piece of advice that you could give to your 20–year-old self and knowing what you know today, what might that be?

Clara: That’s a tough one for me. That’s the toughest question for my personality unfortunately. I feel bad. I’m going to tell you what I think. Everybody has a piece of advice on what they should have done or what they would get their younger self, like, this is what I would have done for himself. I don’t, and it’s not because I’m this person that’s perfect, that I did everything perfect. It’s because I wouldn’t be here today without having done all the stuff that I’ve done, good and bad. Meaning that all the wrong decisions I made, all the tough time I had got me here but all the good time and all the right decision got me here. I’m a really strong believer in no coincidence in making your own pathway, and I would never ever change it for anything. That’s why I can’t answer that.

Dr. Pentland: That’s actually the answer I was expecting. I believe the same thing. But it’s a good question, you never know what you get out of it. Awesome. You answered it perfectly. I want to thank you. I have taken up enough of your time, but I want to also thank you for going through the Golden Cabinet courses and giving some of your feedback. I know you brushed through some of them, I appreciate that. I hope that’s going to help people as well.

Clara: I’m so glad you’re doing this. I think that’s creative that you are offering pearls, I guess we call them, because they’re Golden Cabinet pearls. I think it’s so important. Like you said, people need our help, and the internet, this magical thing, the internet allows us to reach everywhere in the world instead of just being a community. You are reaching everywhere and you can help anybody all over, which is so fantastic. I’m glad you’re doing this. I can’t believe you’re doing a podcast. As I said to you, like, podcast seems to me like a crazy difficult thing to do. And then you are just coming in and saying, hey, I’m doing a podcast. That’s fantastic! It’s easy for me because I just have to come and participate. I don’t have to feel that background that makes it happen. I always talked about our class as a whole, our graduation class, how there was a lot of very strong people in that class. It’s important to have a good group of people that you know of or that you’ve met that are there when things are not going your way or are shifting. I think that’s super important, that you have people that relate to you and your industry, and that you don’t feel, and that’s a big thing in our industry, that they are your competition. I don’t understand that word, I don’t see competition, I don’t use that word. We are all different, we all can bring so many things to everybody. If we compete against each other, then if every woman thinks, well, we all go for the same guy, and then if one woman gets this guy, then every other woman is going to be single for the rest of their life. No, there’s enough men for every woman or enough men for every man or enough person for every person, and there is enough patients for everyone. Because we’re all different, we can bring different things to our practice. I think that is super important to have people you can rely on in our industry, and I think our class had a bunch of strong people, so, that was good. That was our destiny. 15 years later, we are just, hey.

Dr. Pentland: Well, I absolutely love you, Clara. Your energy is fantastic. If you want more of Clara, I’m sure she’d be available for one-on-one consults. You can find her, and we’ll put her contact information in the show notes that you can see. Feel free to get a hold of her. Your website is also full of pearls of wisdom, little videos that you do, so, you do know tech a little bit, that’s great. It’s acuproacademy.com. Check it out. I love your little seven business channels, the emails that you get as well. That was a nice free opt-in, but otherwise, is there anywhere else people can kind of get a hold of you?

Clara: That’s pretty much it. I’m like you, I’m a little bit of everything. I post all the things that are fun, I like to have fun. I have my Facebook page where I create a bunch of different videos and post to make TCM fun to understand. I want to share that to educate the world about TCM, so that’s a goal as well. And then I have a little bit of a Youtube channel as well where I put that mini videos for fun. This is a lot of fun for me, and then I offer courses on my website as well free and premium ones. It’s just something that I started about two and a half years ago and I’m enjoying it. You with the Golden Cabinets, you’ll do the same things. You get to meet people, and meet, I’m talking virtual meet, people from all over the world who are passionate about TCM, which is fantastic. People are passionate about TCM in Dubai. I’m like, wow, this is so cool. Medicine Without Borders, that’s what it is.

Dr. Pentland: Subscribe to Gold Cabinet, we’ve got the YouTube channel, Facebook, we’ve got an iTunes podcast that started now or go to the goldencabinet.ca to see more and to get all the details on today’s podcast, the transcription and how to get a hold of Clara. Thank you so much, Clara. I’m going to let you go. Thank you so much for your time.

Clara: This was fun.

Dr. Pentland: Okay, dear, have a great day and we’ll talk to you again very soon.

Clara: Thank you, Spence.